27 May

The other day, my guild was on its second night of wipes Heroic Nefarian attempts for the week and we weren’t doing so hot.  I think each officer eventually took a turn on the microphone to either give a pep talk or to try to whip us into shape, so we could shake off whatever it was that was preventing us from even getting some solid P2 attempts in.  One officer in particular started listing off things we could otherwise be doing.

“Do we need to go back and do Heroic Halfus, because that seems to be at about our level tonight?”


“Do we need to just call it right here and say we had a good run of things and not raid anymore until Firelands?”

My inner monologue went a little something like this:

“Ugh.  I really don’t want to do that fight again.”


“That’s a ridiculous idea. 
Absolutely ludicrous. 
I don’t know what the hell you were thinking.”

And then it hit me.  I would be perfectly fine calling it right here, at 6/13 in Heroic modes and taking a nice, well deserved break until Firelands comes out.  I would have no problem not logging in, except for the occasional Amani bear run or round of TB dailies.  I wouldn’t be opposed to getting no less than seven hours of sleep a day for a change.  That sounds great right now.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love the game.  I still love raiding.  I have no problem or issue with my guild or anyone in it.  I don’t disagree with anything the officers have done or how they have chosen to plot the guild’s course through this first tier of content.  I’m just tired. 

I have spent the last six months looking at these same bosses over and over again.  I could pretty much heal these fights in my sleep.  There’s no challenge.  There’s no thrill.  The fights that my guild was struggling on aren’t challenging to me because it’s not a healing issue.  There isn’t anything I can do to make the interrupts go more smoothly on Nefarian.  I can’t make people hold off on their DPS when they are supposed to during transitions on Maloriak.  I don’t even want to think of the things I won’t be able to convince people to do on Ascendant Council.

I’m doing my part and I can’t say the same for other people.  I can look at myself and ask myself what I could have done differently on certain encounters and I don’t have an answer.  There’s nothing more I can do.  I would like to think that the people who are having issues or who may be struggling with certain aspects of an encounter are just going through a phase like I am.  They’re tired, too.  They’re burnt out.  Maybe the break would do them some good, as well. 

Maybe we could come back in a month or two, whenever Firelands is released.  We could spend that time getting our shopping lists ready, so we know what upgrades we need and where to get them from.  We could be reading up on strategies or spending time on the PTR and learning the fights first hand.  We could still be doing things to better ourselves, without having to log in two days a week and get our morale ripped to shreds by encounters that people are bored of and that people don’t have the motivation or the energy to do correctly anymore.  It’s like when people decide to work from home, because they don’t want to go into the office.  They’re still technically working, just not in their usual setting.

Does it make me a bad raider for saying this?  Am I a cop out, because I have no interest in completing an entire tier of content for the first time in my raiding career?  Does it bother me that other guilds may do better than me, guilds that I feel maybe should not be?  I think about all of those things and they don’t bother me as much as I thought they would.  At the end of the day I have to love what I do and right now I just don’t. 

I’m over it.  I’m really over it.


30 Responses to “Concede”

  1. Tomaj May 27, 2011 at 7:49 am #

    What I have to wonder is if Nefarian is that much easier than some of the other hardmodes, and if not, then why you’re not progressing on those bosses instead. Hell, even a change of pace on a progression fight can do wonders.

    Still, I don’t think it’s a cop-out. You can only handle so much of something. This is true in more than just WoW.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 8:08 am #

      I don’t feel like it’s *just* Nefarian. I think there’s a general feeling that people are over the existing content. I really think that would carry over into other things we attempted to do and there really isn’t much left.

      We could do Heroic ODS or Conclave. But then there’s Ascendant Council (which I have heard nothing positive about), Cho’gall (and if we can’t beat Nef, we probably can’t beat him) and then He Who Shall Not Be Named and Sinestra (which you have to beat Cho’gall to get to).

      • Tomaj May 27, 2011 at 8:12 am #

        Like I said – one can only handle so much. 😉 I know I’ve just about had it with this tier (for completely different reasons) myself, but … I can’t really afford to take a break. And even if I could, I probably wouldn’t.

  2. Rax May 27, 2011 at 7:53 am #


    A break until firelands wouldn’t upset me in the least, but as long as my guild keeps going back for more I’ll go back with them I suppose. I guess we are gluttons for punishment.

    I think it’s heroic mode burnout. If there were still end bosses you had never seen I think you would be seeing a different tune, I know I would. But doing the same old bosses on, to borrow a term from a commenter, annoying mode, is just not as fun as seeing a new end boss for the first time.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 8:11 am #

      Hi Rax,

      I was actually looking forward to the Heroic modes more than I was the regular ones. To me, Heroic modes *are* progression. Everyone was downing Nefarian and Cho’gall at one point and everyone had the same gear. But to see that little green “Heroic” on my pieces and to know that I was doing something that a good portion of the community wasn’t felt great. That to me separates the “men from the boys” sort of speak.

      So I don’t think it’s tied to that, necessarily. Like I said in the post, it’s a lot of things.

  3. V May 27, 2011 at 8:11 am #

    Well, you could always find the most overzealous of the DPS and hit ’em with Leap of Faith; that usually gets the message across. I kid, I kid.

    Joking aside, I hopefully this analogy isn’t too apples and oranges, but I had the same struggle with school this past semester.

    I had 19 hours of class (including two intensive half-semester courses) so I could transfer out after Summer. I found out that the summer courses would put me in school M-F from the end of May ’til the end of August, when I’d start at the other university. I gave it a lot of thought and decided to do another semester and take the summer off so I wouldn’t burn out and perform poorly at the new university.

    If you love something you’re doing and have an attainable destination down the road with it, you’ll get there one way or another. It’s less of a waste of time to take a break than it is to neglect the part of you that says, “Ok, I’m exhausted” until you’re entirely burned out. I can’t imagine that running a weary raid group up against Heroic Nefarian would do anything positive for morale when they turn the corner into Firelands content.

    Bottom line: It doesn’t make you a bad raider to want a break. It’s part of being aware of the state of things in your world (right up there with knowing your in-game strengths and weaknesses even), which is infinitely important in performing well and being satisfied in the process.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 8:16 am #

      That’s actually not a bad analogy, sir!

      As I mentioned, I think everyone could use the break. Not just myself. The people are having difficulties I don’t feel are bad players or incompetent, beyond fixing. They’re tired and bored, too. Taking a month or two off and coming back with a fresh outlook and a bit more re-energized could help to overcome that, I think.

  4. Cynwise May 27, 2011 at 8:40 am #

    I can’t help but think about vacations and work when reading about your current situation, O.

    Many of the best people I’ve worked for have had a common attitude about vacations: they are a necessary thing that employees MUST take. Skipping vacations might seem like a good idea in the short term for productivity, but in the long run it’s disaster.

    Employees burn out without breaks. They stop producing at high levels because they’re exhausted, and struggling to balance their lives. If the stress never lets up, they’ll either hit a point where they quit or where they just give up – which results in a further drain on the company.

    Taking a vacation is not a bad thing. Having your guild take a raiding vacation is not a bad thing. Make it clear that this is a break, and the goal is to come back and take Firelands by storm.

    I know that’s not an easy thing to do – there’s momentum with raid teams that you want to keep going. I’m sure you’ll find creative ways to keep your team together in the interim.

    But if you’re no longer interested in raiding this tier, you’re not going to give it your all. There’s nothing wrong with valuing your long-term success over your short-term.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 8:54 am #

      Hey Cyn,

      On my end, it’s purely lack of interest. I log in and think of what I could be doing instead of raiding and going “Is Firelands here yet?” I’m on auto pilot at this point. Could my performance be better? Sure. But I’m not dying to stupid. I’m not losing people because I’m not paying attention or healing as much as I should. I’m just doing what I do and going through the motions, but I’m hungry for newer and bigger things.

  5. Lon May 27, 2011 at 8:51 am #

    Sadly O, I kinda feel your pain but haven’t earned it the way you guys have if that makes sense. Cata dropped and after playing around in ICC for a long time, we just didn’t have the steam to get cracking early. Forced and voluntary absences meant our raiding was slow to start and just hasn’t picked up momentum.
    I hope for you folks that the burn out and tiredness is a temporary malaise.

    Hang in there if ya can as the relief when you see 10/12H, 11/12H or 12/12H “should” begin to offset the fatigue that seems to be creeping in.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 9:01 am #

      Hello Lon,

      See, I think what Cyn said makes sense. Everyone deserves a break. I don’t think there should have to be a set requirement for how long someone has been raiding or how hard someone has worked to decide they need one and to have earned one. Different people have different standards, regarding how much they can deal with.

      With the incoming nerfs to certain instances, you may have better luck clearing them or even using pick up groups to complete them, so you can be ready for Firelands.

      You may not be in as bad of a position as you may think, but then again maybe the same is true for me.


  6. Jaedia May 27, 2011 at 9:28 am #

    Ahh I’ve been there, and a break definitely helps.

    You *have* just reminded me in the “jobs that healers don’t have to do that people keep messing up” part of the post, however, that since I’ve recently rolled a Death Knight and am considering raiding that I will have to interrupt. This thought *terrifies* me ._. I hope DBM has big flashing lights and arrows..

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 9:38 am #

      Interrupters do have it rough in this expansion and specifically in this first tier of content. I think everyone can agree on that.

      I’m not saying the job is easy, but I am saying that after so much practice on something and so many tools that exist (like DBM) to make it easier that eventually some progrss should be made. You shouldn’t be running up against the same wall all the time.

      Not “you,” personally. I mean “you,” in general.

      • Jaedia May 27, 2011 at 10:30 am #

        Oh definitely! I haven’t raided properly this expansion, nor properly played a melee class. Lucky for me my guild is more of a social guild than a raiding guild so that gives “me” chance to pick it up 🙂

        A guild working on heroic mode though, completely agree. And I did get the difference, don’t worry 😉

  7. Hikari May 27, 2011 at 9:50 am #

    Interesting post. I mostly agree with this.

    On the one hand I would like to continue progression because I want to see the Sinestra encounter by myself at least once. On the other I am also really tired of seeing the bosses again and again. Although they may be more challenging on heroic mode, they are still the same bosses in the same dungeons you are visiting for several months now.

    Blame Blizzard! They should have let raid difficulty on the level it used to be in Burning Crusade. Back then there was no need for something like hardmodes or heroic difficulty. Raiding was fun and challenging throughout each raid tier. Since Wrath I find myself getting bored really fast once I completed the current raid tier. In my opinion hard modes and heroic difficulty are just artificial elongation of content.

    We already called 25man raids because some member left the guild. At the moment we are trying our best in 10man. But I wouldn’t have a problem if we stop now at 5/13 heroic and gain new power and motivation until Firelands finallay launches.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 10:21 am #

      I feel a bit torn about it, too.

      I would love to see bigger things, but I’m already seeing big things. If you look around, not as many people are at the Heroic level as you may think. It’s easy to look at things in a bubble, when you’re surrounded by people at a certain level of content. But WoW has a lot of subscribers and that doesn’t necessarily sum up what everyone is going through.

      So I also recognize that I’m lucky to be where I’m at and to have seen what I’ve seen. I’m proud of the 6/13 HM, because some people haven’t even reached that level yet.

  8. Valen May 27, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    No! If you or your guild is giving up, then it is a failure of leadership. A solid guild will pick the right priorities; recruit and cultivate the right personalities; maintain high spirits during progression; and generally keep raiders motivated. They also will replace or fix anyone holding the raid back.

    To ask a provocative question, why are you raiding with a guild that is neither advancing nor compelling enough to make you want to keep raiding? Unless you want a relaxed schedule (which no progression guild should want until all content is down), you should find a guild that challenges and interests you. The best relaxed schedule comes when you’ve cleared all the content and are farming for a couple of months before the next tier comes out.

    This tier really isn’t that different from any tier besides Tier 9 and Tier 10, which were a horrible, dark time for raiding in WoW. This is such a better tier that it is baffling how anyone isn’t having fun — unless either they aren’t fit for progression raiding, or their guild is in some way not providing the right environment. If you’re burned out now, perhaps it is the guild you’re in, the guild you were in, and another combination of factors making raiding not fun — but it certainly isn’t the content itself or the difficulty, because this tier is magnificent.

    To the specifics of your situation, how many wipes have you had on Heroic Nefarian? Unless it’s over 100, I would say you’re pretty much in a reasonable place. For a particular boss, find other guilds’ first kills and count how many pulls it took them (World of Logs is great for this). Beyond, oh, 100 for H. Nef, and something definitely is wrong.

    To liven things up on other bosses, propose taking fewer healers to boring fights you can heal in your sleep — I assure you that 1-2 fewer healers and you will be gcd locked and in a very exciting encounter!

    Don’t give up — this tier is too good to give up on.

    • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

      You wouldn’t happen to be from Elitist Jerks, would you? I seem to recall seeing the name Temerity all over the profile of one of the regular posters whom I look up to. If you’re not, it’s just a wild coincidence then.


      I have considered the idea that the guild may be an issue. I’m trying really hard not to go there, because it’s something I think people do quite often. It’s very tempting and it’s very easy to blame a guild or an officer for personal feelings or hardships that may be happening in a guild. Granted, the officers do steer the course of ship. But I also feel they make great scapegoats and a lot of times they can get blamed for things that aren’t their fault.

      I made that mistake in the past, particularly in Wrath. I did way more guild hopping than I had wanted to, because I was convinced it was always a guild’s fault that I wasn’t getting what I wanted. I didn’t really give them a chance and I wasn’t sure how long to give them, for things to improve before I left. There were some guilds I could have tried to make things work with and should have stayed around longer with and then there were those I seemed to leave just in the knick of time.

      I’m prepared to give it a bit more time before I start having those thoughts. For now, I don’t hold my guild responsible for anything that’s really happening at large or for how I’m feeling. If this continues, I may start dwelling on that and might consider it. But not right now.

      • Valen May 27, 2011 at 5:23 pm #

        Yeah I tend to post a bit on EJ as well, depending on what the topic du jour is. I probably post too much 🙂

        I definitely am not one to advocate blaming officers of guilds as a rule. They have thankless jobs and often put in a ton of effort, even when — especially when — things aren’t going well. Nonetheless, they do have a responsibility to the members they have as well as people they ask leave their current guild to join. They’re the ones who make decisions for other people, so they have an obligation to make good ones (or at least try hard at it).

        I seem to recall you have recently joined your current guild so I do encourage taking time to make it work — changing guilds can be traumatic and stressful. But you do need to make sure your interests align with the guild’s, and that the leadership is making good choices to get you to where you want to be. If your ambition exceeds either the guild’s own ambition or its ability to execute, then that mismatch may eventually become untenable in the long term.

        I definitely then would suggest trying to make things work out. Try to find ways to make it more fun, approach officers with concerns, and come up with suggestions about how to make things better. Heroic Nef is mostly a healer challenging fight (and tanking, particularly for the add tank in p3), and with the interrupt changes, all tanks and half the healing classes can reliably interrupt, too! It should be fixable, then you can work on something new!

        • Oestrus May 27, 2011 at 5:42 pm #

          See, that’s what I mean. You’re definitely one of those EJ posters where I *think* I’m pretty bright and then you swoop in and I feel like I know *nothing*!


          I did just recently join them and I do feel more obligated than usual to really try and make it work, because I’ve had a history of not doing that and being very quick to “jump to the dump” and I don’t want to do that. I really meant it when I said I wanted a home in Cataclysm, a permanent home. This could be it and could not be. It’s too soon to tell, but I’d like to give it my best shot.

          Thanks for the support!

  9. Yohannah May 27, 2011 at 9:16 pm #

    Remember that both excitement and apathy are contagious. If you want your raids to feel exciting, be the catalyst for that emotion. Your apathy will affect those around you and how others react to you. I guess what I’m trying to say is make yourself part of the solution rather than feeding into whatever apathy or burnout might be creeping into your raid team.

    You get out of things what you put in. Make sure that what you’re putting in is positive and you’ll get positive returns.

  10. Entropia May 27, 2011 at 9:34 pm #

    This tier is causing another massive amount of burnout akin to what happened in ICC. Hardmodes are more less the same fight with minor differences. If you’ve cleared 12/12 and done half of them on Hardmode, then I can see why you’d want to give it a break at this point. If Kurn told us we’d be taking a break until Firelands I’d be okay with that. I’ve been far more enamored with PvP lately anyway.

    I think it’d cause less burnout and that’s a huge problem with us mid-tier level players. We don’t clear the content in a couple months and then not worry about it. We steadily go at our own pace to try and clear as much content as we can before the next tier is introduced at which point we switch gears from the now old content to the new current content. We don’t have any downtime in between all of this and we keep pushing with the 3-4 day raiding schedules and still demoralizing ourselves when we wipe to the same boss half of those days in our raiding week.

  11. Shaelyaer May 28, 2011 at 1:46 pm #

    Hey there!

    I just stumbled across your blog and this particular post attracted my attention, mainly because my guild’s going through a very similar situation.

    We are currently at 144 wipes on Nef heroic, and Sunday night it’s starting all over again.
    I am an officer in my guild and the healing leader, and in our case as well, it is not the healing that is a problem.

    After 144 wipes we have gone past the p2 wipes ( most of the time at least…) however p3 is completely screwing us over.

    I feel that the main issue is the add tank in p3. Ehm let’s say the tank team in our guild is not the strongest… we currently have a solid MT which happens to be a druid and two OT : a prot warrior ( two actually) and a prot paladin.

    I know that logically in p3 we should have the druid on Nef and the warrior and paladin on adds, but the two OTs are just not capable of dealing with the adds properly…

    We have had the druid tank on the adds, but that is not going that great either. Most of the time part of the adds do not reset and gain a silly amount of stacks and they end up one shotting the tanks…

    Now I have never played a tank and especially not in that fight so I really can’t put my finger on what they are doing wrong, but it is certain that we wipe consistently between 30 and 15% because the add tank gets gibbed. Various videos that show add tanks in action don’t seem to help either…

    Rant over, I am seriously tired and uninspired with this fight and I completely understand where you are coming from. There is not much more I can do, or push the healing team to do better. Healing is just not possible at a certain point on the add tank and I feel powerless and very very frustrated. 😦

    Our guild is further heroic progression wise, we are 9/13 HC and only raid 3 days a week and lately it feels that all we do in those 3 days is wipe again and again at the same point… 😦 I could do with a break as well…

    • Oestrus May 28, 2011 at 1:56 pm #

      Hello, Shaelyaer!

      Phew. That is tough. First off, congrats on the 9/13 HC. That’s a huge accomplishment and I hope you know that and are proud of that fact. I can see how frustrating it would be, to think it’s something you *can* fix, with the “Well, maybe we can adjust the healing on the add tank and keep him up better.” But this sounds like an issue that the tanks need to sort out with either themselves or they need to find tank specific resources that can help them through this.

      Your job as a healer and a healing lead doesn’t qualify you to fix this for them. If they’re going this long without improvement, I don’t know what can really fix that. Has your guild considered looking for new tanks, especially if the two OT are really struggling with seemingly basic responsibilities? Do they do well in other places or do they have issues on other fights?

      I’m glad you stopped by and look forward to chatting with you more about this!

      • Shaelyaer May 28, 2011 at 3:34 pm #

        The OTs do well in other fights. Our MT is a solid player but if I have to be entirely honest I think the raid leader made a pretty big mistake. We have focused on progressing in heroic modes so intensively that we completely overlooked Nef on normal mode… Many of the people that are doing the fight on heroic now, have never done it before in normal mode so they had to learn the whole thing from scratch. This, sadly, includes the tanks.

        We have had the old OT that did the fight in normal mode quit for IRL issues and we just didn’t manage to get a decent one since…

        I swear finding good tanks is a nearly impossible task… they are usually the players that are most loyal to their guilds and often not big on guild hopping, so we only get applications from disbanding guilds and such… A good OT would probably sort this, but we will try a few different things and see how these go… 🙂

        • Oestrus May 28, 2011 at 5:28 pm #

          I have actually seen this issue with a number of guilds. There was so much emphasis on getting “the kill” and getting that credit, that screen shot, that they forgot that people still need to gear up and you may need to farm a fight or two before you can move on to other things. I see that a lot. Not to say that a few more purples would fix the issue that you’re experiencing, but it certainly couldn’t hurt.

          Well, I will certainly be cheering for you! Please let me know what happens and stop by again sometime.


  12. Amerence May 29, 2011 at 2:40 am #

    **I’m jealous lmao!** All I wish I had that progression by now even just doing it on 10 man content It would be awesome! but another patch of great raid dungeon coming up on 4.2 yea! everyone will be exhausted if they are chasing the time on finishing the content before the patch released.

    But its okay, it will still be there. progress or not, as long as I can still explore the zone later… Im okay, still have plenty of hours and days to play World of Warcraft. =)

    Good luck in your progression O, Have fun hon. =D

  13. Kuri June 1, 2011 at 1:20 am #

    H Nef’s the proverbial guild destroyer. He falls, but not before you pretty much strip out any weak components in your entire raiding team (or yell at them until they’re so embarrassed they shape up or sit).

    It’s up to your Officers to pick apart each encounter’s failures down to a person. For instance:

    People doing <20k? They're not pulling their baseline DPS whether they got Dominion or not, and if they did get Dominion, they're definitely not handling the portal walk properly. Tell them to shape up (publicly or privately) or they'll be sat. And proceed to sit them if there's no improvement. Your bench should be full enough to account for a few bleh performers.

    Interrupts failing? Ask which platform failed, then who was up in the order. If they missed, they'd better have the best reason ever. Otherwise, if they were quiet tell them to pipe up, and if they were lazy paying attention to interrupt order, get them out of the raid.

    Healers not topping people off sufficiently? You need to figure out who's not using their cooldown in proper rotation, who's not pulling the required HPS, who's ignoring their group assignment, or whether they're too busy walking towards a portal stacking Dominion for no good reason. Sub accordingly.

    Tanks not spinning Ony/Nef fast enough? Yell at them to spin faster. Aggro not generating fast enough? Give them a dedicated full-fight misdirect. Kiting not smooth? This is the only thing I really feel sympathetic about because kiting those adds and avoiding flames is no small feat. Give them practice till they get it, and if they can't get it, sub 'em.

    Nef's one of those fights where you can't fudge peoples' mistakes. 1 tiny mistake (a missed kick, an unstacked portal, an add touching flame, a breath on the raid, an Exploding Cinder not brought far enough from the platform) spells a wipe. Therefore, you must stack your raid with perfect performers.

    If you (or your team) lacks the motivation to reach the necessary level, it's best to take a backseat and let those with the passion push forward. But these fights are perfectly doable with the right amount of practice, raider accountability, and Officer attention to performance.

    For 2 nights a week though you guys seem to be smashing it. Most guilds need 8 hours a week on a progression boss just to see things cement. Keep at it and keep your head up. 😀

  14. Blakkeyez June 2, 2011 at 8:53 am #

    My guild more or less collapsed under the weight from trying to push things further over and over when we clearly should have taken a break from it. I think we all had the same gut feeling that you do. They aren’t bad players. In fact many of them if not most are completely astounding players that could fit any high end raiding guild’s demands. At least in terms of playing skill and dedication. Now we are just a shard of what we used to be. I am tired too. Burnt out. Not so much from wiping as from the thrills and blood rush involved, both good and bad ones. A couple of years on the emotional rollercoaster that raiding is does that to you and it gets worse the more dedication and effort that are rolled down the tracks. And strangely enough after seeing it go all downhill lately I can’t be frustrated and sad about it anymore either. I feel… relaxed. I sort of came to terms with it. The only sorrow placed upon my shoulders is I think that I didn’t realize it earlier because I really do belive that even if we had lost a few along the road doing so, we would have ended up a stronger and most important a happier raid in the future. Now we’ll never know.

    I guess… don’t feel bad about having such feelings. Think of it this way: If you get that feeling now and can be relaxed about it you can easier make a good decision on how you want things instead of having to make them in frustration… or you can just keep banging the head against that wall until it’s too late. That works too and to be honest it’s not the end of the world either. I know now.

    • Oestrus June 2, 2011 at 11:14 am #

      Hi Blakkeyez,

      Thank you for stopping by and sharing your story with me. What did end up happening with your guild? Did you guys stay together and break up into 10 mans or go completely casual? Maybe PVP? What did you end up doing with yourself and your play time?

      Let me know, I’m very anxious to hear more about how everything panned out for you and your guild.

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