13 Jun

This is a story about balls. Those who have them, those who don’t have any and those who have too much of them.

Our story begins at Heroic Nefarian, of course.  My guild was just coming off an amazing Tuesday night, where we had cleared all of the Heroic modes in Blackwing Descent and regular ODS in one evening and squeezed in some great attempts on Heroic Nefarian.  We went in the next evening feeling refreshed, optimistic and ready to kick some ass.  Well, at least some of us did, anyway.

Things weren’t going very well.  I was getting frustrated, because with the exception of one good attempt earlier in the evening, we weren’t doing as well as we usually do.  There was no progress being made.  I kept thinking that Firelands is less than two weeks away and we are probably not going to down this boss before it does.  That really depressed me. 

As I was pondering what this meant for me and mine, I noticed a message being spammed in my chat box. 

You receive loot: [Heavy Leather Ball]
You receive loot: [Heavy Leather Ball]
You receive loot: [Heavy Leather Ball]

Now I know that people have accused me of not being very fun in the past.  People say I’m too business or too serious and I need to lighten up a bit.  Don’t get me wrong, I like to have a good time – when I feel we have earned it.  If we’re putzing around before Heroic Magmaw or Argaloth, I can let the hair down a bit.  We have earned the right to be a little more care free and that’s a good time to be doing so.

But when we’re on week four or even week five of wiping on the same encounter and mind you we’re not even wiping to Nefarian, at this point.  We’re wiping to human error.  We’re missing interrupts.  We’re not reacting appropriately when we have Exploding Cinders.  We have DPS dying in p1 for reasons that nobody can seem to understand or pinpoint.  That’s what’s killing us.  To me, that’s not a reason to celebrate.  That’s not a reason to be silly and goofy.  I don’t think that’s funny.  In fact, I think it’s sad.

So you can imagine how enthused I was to see that a person or people had begun throwing their balls into my bags before the pull.  One or two is cute.  Four and five stacks is obnoxious.  I asked repeatedly for whomever it was that was doing this to knock it off.  I typed it in raid chat and I asked on Vent.  I may not have asked politely, but I did ask for them to stop. 

Anyone who knows me knows that I do what I say and I say what I mean.  If I say “stop,” it means stop.  I meant it the first time and I will mean it every time that I say it afterwards.  I don’t know if they didn’t think I was serious or what, but I was.  All that energy that was spent throwing crap into my bags was certainly not being directed towards the raid, otherwise we wouldn’t be facing closing out yet another week without downing Heroic Nefarian.  Of all the things that person could be doing, they were choosing to waste their energy filling up my bags with useless crap. 

And with that, I left the raid, disconnected from Vent and said in guild chat that whoever it was that was doing that could heal, because I sure wasn’t going to do it anymore.  I found out a short time later that they managed to get Nefarian down to 16% (our best attempt to date) after I left, because they were down to six healers and having more DPS in the raid made a huge difference.  So at least something good did come out of the evening.

I spent the next few days waiting for some kind of fallout to happen and nothing did.  There were a few passive-aggressive jabs at me on the forums, but I had yet to receive an actual direct response to what I did.  There were no angry direct messages from any of the officers.  No furious in game mails telling me where to shove my guild bank donations.  I logged on the next morning to find I was still in the guild and still had my raider status.  I couldn’t possibly have gotten away with this.  Or could I?

On Friday afternoon, I came home to find an e-mail from one of our officers, asking if he could talk to me off the record about some things.  I really didn’t want to, but I figured I would keep an open mind and see what he had to say.  There was talk of me having to make a public apology to the raid for insulting them with my actions.  You know what I find insulting?  People who don’t have their DBM or Big Wigs configured to alert them properly of when they have Exploding Cinders or people who don’t even have DMB or Big Wigs or something like that functioning in their interface.  That’s insulting.

I find people who show up week after week and make the same mistakes, without ever doing anything to improve upon them and learn from their mistakes insulting.  I find people who can’t be bothered to run back to the instance in a timely manner and who make us have to buff the raid again and again insulting.  I find people who can’t click the damn Lightwell or use Healthstones or Stoneform or any other defensive cooldowns that they have to keep themselves alive on a fight where survival is key to be insulting.

Where’s my public apology?

I spent the weekend hanging out with friends and received a message from one of our officers, with a few words from the GM attached.  He stated that he wanted to talk to me at some point and that we actually needed to talk.  I informed the GM that I had Ophelie staying with me this weekend and that I felt anything we needed to discuss could be done through e-mails or private messages on the forums.  I wasn’t going to have Ophelie sitting in my living room and watching movies on her laptop, while my GM and I duke it out on Vent. 

There is one major thing a GM can say to me or insinuate to make me leave me them and my GM had said exactly that.  Anytime the words “really want to be here” come up in conversation, I start packing my bags and walking out the door.  I am the last person that anyone can ever ask that question to.  If you have to ask me whether or not I really want to be in your guild, then you obviously haven’t been paying attention.  I shouldn’t have to convince someone that I want it bad enough for them to keep me or for me to stay.  I shouldn’t have to have that hanging over my head, like “If you really want to be here, you will do this.” 

I logged on and left the guild shortly after that.  I logged out of my profile on the boards and haven’t looked back.  I spent the weekend leveling my Night Elf mage and having a great time being away from the computer.  I have had an offer or two to join other guilds, but for the most part the pickings are slim.  I really don’t want to throw myself at the mercy of the Guild Recruitment boards and deal with the trolls that came around last time.  Most of the guilds I’m seeing are looking for holy paladins or resto shaman.  Nobody out there is really looking for a holy priest. 

So I’m looking, but not too aggressively.  I kind of like the idea of a break before Firelands and Lord knows I have posts I want to get churned out before the next patch hits.  I’m a little mad at myself that I’m back here again, guild hopping like I was in Wrath.  But I think it’s different this time.  I’m not sure how, but it is.  I just have to do the right thing and I feel I did that.  I know I did that. 

And that my friends takes balls.


51 Responses to “Balls”

  1. slice213 June 13, 2011 at 9:10 am #

    Agreed. If things are not going well, people should not be goofing off, or at the least their activities should not be to the detriment of others. No means no, at that point the officers/GM/RL should have said to that person to cut it out.

    Also public apology…the apology should have come from the person doing stupid shit like that. Its like putting down a toy train in the raid. Annoying shit/stuff like that needs to be kept at a minimum unless the boss is on farm.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 9:29 am #

      I agree. If it would have been anywhere else but there, I probably could have dealt with it.

      The same goes for real life. If I have had a crappy day at work or even a horrible day, the last thing I would want to do is come home to a whoopie cushion or some other prank that’s meant to cheer me up. It wouldn’t cheer me up and it would annoy me more.

      There is a time and a place for such things and I simply didn’t feel that Heroic Nefarian was one of them.

  2. Zinn June 13, 2011 at 9:11 am #

    You know what freaks me out? The similarities between your experiences and mine. What you describe pretty much wraps up most of my clashes with the officerhood in my guild. I get demoted from being an officer because someone thought I was being rude. But it’s just totally ok for someone else to refuse to use TS and to freaking suck at moving from shit? It gets me so damn frustrated, and I am amazed (as are others) that I am still around. Because I don’t accept everything or don’t let it slide, because I question people and try to help the guild progress, I am the one who gets punished. But where is the consistency? I could tell you 15 stories that sound like the one above and fortunately for my guild the majority of my raiding group are still people I like or I probably would’ve done what you did long ago. Actually by now I am staying just as much just to be a pimple in the ass of my officers >:) Someone has to make sure they don’t have an easy time.

    If you happen to be on an EU server, I know my bfs 10 man guild is looking for people (holy/disc priest being the one thing they lack actually). And if you want to wreck havoc with me in my guild, you’re always welcome to throw an app there too (also EU though).

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 9:31 am #

      I’ll admit, the thought of an EU server is tempting. I have no idea how the time differences would work, though. I can’t raid any earlier than 4:30pm my time and any later than 11:00pm (both USA CST). I would imagine you’re probably in bed or just waking up at those hours, so it may not work.

      If we could sort that out, I would be open to considering it. My God, running with you would be a trip, Zinn.

      • tyl June 13, 2011 at 10:29 am #

        There are a number of late night guilds over here that may work for you (email me for mine 11/13HM: shameless plug!)

        I did a bit of kara raiding back in the day on the US servers, 3am starts were interesting, although a little psychosis inducing.

        I think you would find the server/vent culture in raids can be quite a bit different. If you end up in a multi-national guild it is somewhat different, since it is less mono-cultural, in the bigger guilds there are almost always nationality based cliques.

        Sadly you still get the full range of people from the asshats to the more adult/mature guilds

        The big barrier which I wish Blizz would fix is the fact that you can’t realm transfer to other regions, and you have to buy box sets again!

  3. Runycat June 13, 2011 at 9:20 am #

    It’s easy for me to say “Good for you!” because I’m not a part of your raid group, nor do I know you on a personal level. Regardless, any sort of raiding environment that actively (or passively, really) espouses disrespect or regularly inspires frustration truly isn’t worth your time. I’ve been there. But the bottom line is that everyone is replaceable. You’ll find another guild that works out, and your old guild will find another healer (eventually). Fortunately for you, decent DPSers are a dime a dozen, and great healers and tanks are few and far between. Enjoy your break, and don’t let anyone shit all over you for leaving.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 9:33 am #

      Thank you, Runycat.

      And I’m not saying that I wasn’t disrespectful. I did something crummy and there were certain concessions that I was willing to make and certain ones that I wasn’t.

      I’m not saying that I’m totally in the right here. But I didn’t do this alone and I don’t feel I should be taking the blame alone and I won’t. That’s ultimately what it came down to.

  4. Analogue June 13, 2011 at 9:28 am #

    I don’t run a hardcore raid, we’re only 10/12 normal. So I look for different things than the raids you run with. But if one my my raiders acted like you did and showed no signs of contrition I wouldn’t invite you back.

    With your skills you’ll find a new guild just fine. But I wouldn’t link them this post. Heroic mode raids put up with a lot of crap but the ones I’ve been around would probably all agree your behavior is over the line. It’s not about whether or not someone else is being obnoxious. There’s only one person in a raid whose behavior you can control and that’s you.

    You’ll probably get a lot of attagirl comments, or “you’re better off without them”. But if you were one of my raiders I’d say you behaved very poorly.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 9:38 am #

      Hi Analogue,

      It is about whether someone else is being obnoxious. If the situation would have been dealt with at the onset, everything else would not have happened. I said not once, not twice, but three times to leave me alone. I was clear on this. There was no way it could be mistaken that I was having a good time or that I enjoyed what was happening.

      That’s your cue as an officer or GM to step in and handle your shit. If you don’t handle it, I will. Simple as that. You do your job and I won’t have to do it for you. See how that works?

      And I was prepared to accept some responsibility for what happened, but I’ll be damned if I’m the only one.

      • Analogue June 13, 2011 at 9:52 am #

        I run a friendly 10 man, not a hardcore 25 man, but I have run with really pro 25 man groups in the past. What I’ve found is that once people start acting like assholes, the leaders have two choices: call them on it and have those people drop, or don’t call them on it and hope the offended party doesn’t drop. When your raiding metric is performance and not personality, you tend to get a lot of people who just don’t care how annoying they are being.

        I’m not trying to excuse the behavior that got you annoyed. I’d have come down on that. On the other hand I’ve been there on frustrating nights when a couple people try to do something silly to relax, and someone else flips out about it. It usually results in even more tension.

        If the person who was annoying you had been told to stop, he should have stopped. He might have thought it was stupid to get annoyed over that. If he hadn’t stopped and had been asked to apologize, he should have apologized, again, even if he was being stupid. But by the same standard the raid leader was right to ask you to apologize. Because your stunt was equally stupid. There were probably at least 20 people who were not involved in annoy you. You dropping raid, and then leaving guild entirely, have affected them.

        It does seem that the guild wasn’t a good fit for you. I think any time someone /gquits and walks away it’s sad but probably a good thing. There’s probably a team you can find that has a sense of humor closer to yours.

        • Zinn June 13, 2011 at 10:59 am #

          I do agree that rage raid quitting usually is something I think is the last course of action and the least good one. But we have to consider the build up as well. When you think you’ve exhausted all actions and that the officers obviously won’t do anything about the problem, drastic measure is needed. Why waste your time in a raid run that clearly wasn’t motivated to get the job done? In that situation I think it is good to set your foot down and tell everyone “this is not what I signed up for, if you wanna fool around you do it without me”. You think people would stick in a pvp-arena team with someone who just trolloled? Although I think you should try to discuss a matter constructively as long as possible I get so irritated with people who cosset an issue far too long without it actually leading to anything.

  5. Lizzie June 13, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    I’m similar to you in the whole “I say stop; STOP” thing. If I ask my husband to take the trash out, I don’t freaking mean in 15 minutes when his tv show is over. >:|

    I totally agree that there is a time and place for shenanigans during raiding. For example: We /roll for blame after a wipe then friendly snark at the “winner”. That’s an okay time. When the Raid Leader is explaining a fight to a new raider? NOT the time to tell /jokes. <:\

    I hope you 1) Enjoyed your weekend with Ophelie! and 2) Find an agreeable, suitable guild for Firelands. Good luck!

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 10:02 am #

      You kids and your marriages!

      Roll blame for the winner sounds like fun and yes, we are having a great time! I took her out for brunch and then we took a nap. We went out for pizza for dinner and then talked for a while.

      I just feel bad that I don’t have wireless Internet at my place. She’s stuck using my computer if she wants to get online, though I think she mentioned visiting a coffee house today to get her hands on some Wi-Fi.

      Tonight I’m taking her to a spy themed restaurant where you need to know the password to get in and I’m *not* telling her the password beforehand. Ha!

  6. koalabear21 June 13, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    I have to agree with Ana. As an officer and former raid leader I would have asked for you to apologize. Rage quitting (and that is what you did) is never cool. If it was that big of a deal you should have brought it up to the raid leader or an officer at the time. That is what they are there for. Instead you rage quit then rage quit the guild.

    I don’t care how good of a healer you are, there is just too much drama with you.

    Raiding is supposed to be fun. It doesn’t sound like you enjoy fun.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 10:22 am #

      You mean me saying “Stop throwing your balls at me or I’ll cut off your balls” wasn’t an indication that it was a big deal? You mean me asking three times *loudly* in Vent wasn’t a sign that it was a big deal? How much more obvious could it have been?

      I do enjoy fun, but there’s a time and a place for it. That evening and that particular circumstance was not one of them.

  7. Jar June 13, 2011 at 10:17 am #

    First of all, best of luck wherever you end up. You are a competent holy priest and I’d be happy to act as a reference for you if you’d like one.

    Secondly, it’s a shame you didn’t take the time to speak with your GM. Had you done that, you would have known that the other parties involved had already been chastised and were ready to issue an apology to you, along with other punishment. (We tend to deal with drama behind the scenes, rather than dish up reprimands in public arenas.) You would have also known that the only “punishment” for the rage quit was going to be asking you to sit out for a night, which I think if fairly lenient. But, it was a first offense and we knew you were stressed.

    If someone insinuated anything else to you, that’s unfortunate, because they were misinformed. All that we, the officers, wanted was to make sure that people realized rage quitting is never a good idea. After all, while you made your point to the one person goofing around, you also injured the other 23 people who had done nothing to deserve your response.

    I think, in the long run, your personality and the guild’s personality were not the best fit anyway. I think you’d be happier in a more hardcore environment or a ten man. guild. That will probably relieve a lot of your stress and prevent others from becoming stressed by you.

    Your rage quit from the guild did provide for one positive thing though. It allowed us to bring in a new priest who I hope will be a better social fit. So, it’s probably for the best in the end. Again, I hope you find the perfect guild for you. I’m sure it’s out there. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!

  8. Jenen June 13, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    I can understand being annoyed at the balls… but quitting the raid over that? If I was your GM, you’d have probably been kicked soon afterwards. You essentially wasted the time of 24 other people because one person annoyed you. Yes, the raid leader could’ve said something, but your response was totally overboard imo. (Actually, I would’ve been pissed off if I had *whispered* the RL/officer and told them ball-person is getting on my nerves. I wouldn’t expect the RL to guess and step up for me…)

    I’m sure you’ll find a new guild soon enough with your experience… but like Analogue said, I wouldn’t link them to this post. If you were applying to mine, I’d see you as a potential drama source and decline.

  9. K June 13, 2011 at 10:35 am #

    Dear O, your blog is the first one I open every morning, in hope of finding a new post. I am a happy person, if i can enjoy my coffee and have a good read at the same time. This time – i could not sit quiet.

    At first, i thought it’s going to be a fun-themed post, where the “bad guy”, the one who threw balls at you, is not the “bad” guy at all, but a mere prankster who disarms the tension of all those wipes, human errors and what have you by a harmless play. I thought that you would then throw the balls back at everyone around you to further ease the tension by having a laugh. This is probably what I would do. In fact, I did throw balls, paper zeppelins, skulls, torches and other objects at others, and the fun part was when my “target” spotted that it was me, and was throwing the objects back at me, trying to build my stack in the inventory faster than i did theirs. I also moo’ed at taurens. I danced with boomkins. I flew upside-down.

    Childish? Yes, totally. But you know what? It’s called fun.

    What you did, however, surprised me to the bone. I mean it – to the bone. A brilliant person and a great player, quits her guild over leather balls. How mature.

    But then i thought: I understand. A ball, which kicked the avalanche. A straw that broke the camel’s back. However, it looks like the prankster is not at fault. You are not at fault, either. It’s your ex-guild’s officers who did not know how to deal the situation.

    In the end, I wish you to be happy with your decision. I wish you the rest that you apparently desperately need and most of all, I wish you to learn to smile – at stupid guildmates, at yourself, and at anything that would otherwise be too depressing to bear. Good luck, and hoping to read you soon!


    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 10:47 am #

      Wow. Your entire comment really hit home. I honestly don’t know what to say to that.

      Yeah. I have no words.

      Thank you. I can say thank you.

  10. Lunarsoul June 13, 2011 at 10:48 am #

    It seems that the real problem here was a lack of officer intervention. If you have to type in raid/guild chat and say something on Vent and an officer still hasn’t said anything, at this point there’s a lack of officer leadership and direction. While I don’t necessarily approve of “rage quits” during a guild raid, there is usually a deeper meaning to them than what most people will see.

    Would I have done the same thing? Probably not. But everyone is different and can make their own choices. Unfortunately, while you may be punishing the person who did this and the neglectful officers, your also punishing the other 20 people in the raid as well, and I can’t really say that’s fair. At the same time, the officers are equally guilty for not stepping in to correct the problem.

    Is it all your fault? Absolutely not. It seems to be that the direction the GM came to you from was the wrong one. THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SOME MEDIATION. While you might have been wrong for leaving, THEY WERE JUST AS WRONG FOR LETTING IT ESCALATE TO THAT POINT.

    Maybe the GM should have said something like this. “Hey O, we need to talk about the other night. I understand you seemed to be frustrated, but I want to let you know that leaving wasn’t the answer. However, I also understand that some of the officers (including myself) noticed what was going on and failed to react in a timely fashion.”

    By saying this, both parties are guilty in some fashion. A raid-wide apology would not be needed, certainly not from you. If anything the GM should maybe have made a small pep talk at the next raid. But instead, he probably made you feel like an idiot and spoke to you like a child. “Do you want to be here” is something you say to a 14-year old who is slacking off.

    My conclusion: While you might have let your raid down with your actions, your officers let you down, and that’s not OK.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 10:54 am #

      I was never opposed to taking responsibility for my actions or having to own up to what I did. I was opposed to being the only one who had to do so. I was opposed to always having to be the bigger person, because others could not be.

  11. tyl June 13, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    Is this all a question of desires and expectations, and consequently obligations?

    The guild “in general” wanted fun raiding, some progression, and didn’t expect high conformity with addon setup, or high performance around all of nef’s joyous mechanics.

    O wanted probably more serious raiding, and had higher expectations of performance and behaviour

    The officers didn’t want to have public confrontations and tolerated the “fun” that was shown

    Obligation/responsibility is after all a two way street, and in most cases we use some sort of norm to communicate what we mean, without actually articulating all the differences. Words like “mature raiding guild” or “hardcore” or “casual” or “friendly” and a endless string of others mean a lot and ultimately nothing.

  12. Suzushiiro June 13, 2011 at 11:51 am #

    On one hand, ragequitting a raid is never an okay thing as it screws over the 9-24 people who were counting on you to be there to do your job.

    On the other hand, it sounds like you had some leadership fail going on there, not just in the fuckery going on in raid but in the raiders not pulling their weight thing. If the rest of the raid isn’t pulling as much weight as you and the management doesn’t give as much of a fuck about that as you, then that’s probably a sign that you need to upgrade to a more serious guild.

    If you rage-logged like that in Big Crits you’d probably get kicked, possibly on the spot, but on the other hand the situation that made you rage-log would probably not happen in Big Crits.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 12:28 pm #

      Hello Suzu,

      I’m a *huge* fan of yours and of BI and I’m very excited to see your face on my blog. Thank you for stopping by and for giving some additional feedback.

      If you rage-logged like that in Big Crits you’d probably get kicked, possibly on the spot, but on the other hand the situation that made you rage-log would probably not happen in Big Crits.


  13. Apple June 13, 2011 at 12:52 pm #

    Hm. I have various thoughts about the situation, but… I’ve gotta say that K’s comment covered most of my thoughts. You know me, I’m one of those “goof off before pull” people, as long as I’ve eaten my buff food and renewed any buffs I owe the raid and everything. I /dance, I /flirt, I run around in circles and make “your mom” jokes in /s and use my leftover halloween wands on unsuspecting party members. It’s how I keep from getting too frustrated at wipes. And yes, I know, I have a very limited experience, and never progression raiding, but it’s something that I know is not likely to change, because it’s who I am.

    But I know that not everyone plays that way. Which is why most of my goofing off during Apoth’s ICC before Cata dropped was with Ose and other people I knew would be in the mood for it. Just because you don’t find huge stacks of leather balls in your bag funny does not make you a not-fun person. If you have to ask multiple times for something to stop, and it a) doesn’t stop, and b) no officers step in, forcing you to take matters into your own hands… well, that’s just not cool.

    Should you have ragequit? No. I know if I’d been in the raid, I would’ve been really angry with you, even if I knew why you were upset and stressed. But that wouldn’t have lasted long, both because I fail at staying angry at people and because I know intimately that there is only SO MUCH SHIT a person can take. That’s why I work at a porn store now instead of the portrait studio. That’s why my parents and I are only just now starting to be able to spend time together after almost 6 years. That’s why I’m not friends with some people I used to love dearly. So… I understand definitely why you did it. And I probably would’ve done the same.


    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 12:55 pm #

      C’mere, you smut peddler!


      • Apple June 14, 2011 at 2:15 pm #

        Hee! *HUG* Basically, you are awesome for having balls, even if you do stuff like ragequit. Would that I had your balls, lovey! (preferably covered in duck sauce…. ;D )

  14. Amerence June 13, 2011 at 12:53 pm #

    All the responses said it already, but I just want to say Good Luck in finding a new home. It is just frustrating when of all the people in the guild, the leadership management don’t understand especially the insulting part, as if you are the one that was goofing around, it was actually the other members. it is sad.

    You put all the effort to come in and raid prepared, they should have at least acknowledge that. Anyway, In the end of the day, I always say this it’s there loss not yours. Your a great player and I am sure a lot of guilds out there are hungry to have you especially that You have heroic progression. hehe! Good Luck again!

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 12:56 pm #

      I remember this scene, when I was watching a documentary on the rapper Nicki Minaj and she was going off about how she was tired of being made to feel bad because she wanted more for herself and people didn’t understand that.

      Anywho, there was this photo shoot, where they only had a $50 clothes budget and they tried serving pickle juice and I just remember the line “But had I accepted the pickle juice, I would be drinking pickle juice right now.”

      I was like “Yes, I get it!”

      Sorry. Random, I know.

  15. Windsoar June 13, 2011 at 1:03 pm #

    I actually winced at myself when I was reading this. When you described the leather balls all I could think was *For the love of God, NOT another Paper Zepplin/Fun Rock/Toy Train* Like you, I frequently find “tension relievers” i.e. goofing off to lighten the mood on a bad night tend to have the opposite result of the one intended: I get tense. I want to toss my well-meaning team-mate into the lava. And I hope to God he stops soon.

    On the other hand, I cannot remember a single instance when I rage quit to escape someone who was annoying the shit out of me. I’ve whispered the RL and asked to be replaced which sometimes happens and sometimes not. But even if I don’t get replaced it DEFINITELY clues in my team management that I’m NOT HAPPY and something needs to be done.

    I find the lag response by your management team somewhat disturbing as well. Leaving people out in limbo without an even “your behavior was inappropriate but we are discussing what action we want to take” is preferable to nothing then a seeming ultimatum to talk to us in Vent ASAP (despite other viable communication methods) or else.

    While I can’t say “I would’ve done the same thing” I can definitely empathize with your frustration that you were feeling harassed by the good cheer committee. As others have said, I just don’t think this was the guild for you.

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 1:07 pm #

      The timeline goes like this:

      – I left the raid on Wednesday night.
      – I received a request to have a discussion with one of the officers, in a non-officer sanctioned discussion (his words, not mine) on Friday.
      – I received a response from the GM and left the guild on Sunday.

      Mind you, I only heard something in an official capacity because I pursued it. There was no initiating on their part. I was the one who tracked down an officer on Saturday and asked where this was going or what was going to happen. Had I not pursued it, I don’t know when I would have heard something about this.

  16. V June 13, 2011 at 3:51 pm #

    I believe it’s entirely counterproductive to be screwing around before something like that.

    It’s kind of baffling and disappointing to me that those kinds of issues even exist in a guild doing heroic endgame raiding content.

    I remember doing a 25 Onyxia achievement run back in WotLK (mind you, though, this was far after it was even remotely difficult) with a PuG. My warrior was MT and, since I was the first back after the wipe, I decided to play with my racer while I was waiting for the others. As a result, we wiped a second time (because apparently racers can pull Onyxia) and everyone in the group dropped out. I will admit that, immediately after the whole horror reaction, I was quite literally LOL-ing at the sight of Onyxia chasing my remote-controlled race car (and the friend who was with me STILL pulls dungeon bosses with his racer if I’m in the group so that I’ll never completely live it down).

    However, I did realize that what I’d done wasn’t in any way wise, nor was it helpful to my reputation as a player. As a result, I decided to leave any item I didn’t immediately need for an encounter in the bank. Nowadays my inventory includes necessary gear, flasks/potions, buff food, hp/mp consumables, and extra gems/enchanting mats/pre-enchanted vellums (so I can quickly have an upgrade ready to use).

    In my opinion, this should be the norm (and a rule), because people who are playing with novelty items before the group pulls a boss on which they’ve been wiping repeatedly obviously aren’t attending to their actual responsibilities, such as examining their performance via logs or mentally running through something they missed. As an extension, the people they’re pranking, who may actually be in the midst of something productive, will become distracted.

    I roll my eyes every time I see someone in guild leadership say they want a “fun/social/etc. heroic 25-man raid group”. If a guild requires T11+ caliber gear for admission and uses tools like World of Logs, it’s not a fucking social guild. That content (especially when it’s the source of month-long wipe fests) demands players who have enough common sense to save the shenanigans for after hours. The fact that its leadership would respond to that kind of petulant behavior with anything less than benching the offending players for a few nights is ridiculous. The fact that they’d ignore a complaint about it (let alone when it’s issued both in raid and on vent) is even worse.

    I personally am not a fan of rage quitting, but any GM who’d immediately drop you from his or her guild for leaving in that situation is undoubtedly too dense for a leadership role. Thankfully, yours could muster at least that much competence.

    Your ex-GM should have started the conversation by apologizing for the actions of the other players and apologizing for his or her own lack of action after you complained several times through different channels. That’s called being humble, and it’s a big part of being a strong leader. Asking you whether or not you really wanted to be there is threatening and extremely arrogant. It’s one thing to make a player aware that his or her raiding position is sustained by their performance and morale, but implying that they are disposable is unacceptable. You were well within your rights to leave the guild, and the patronizing, passive-aggressive comment on this entry from who I’d assume is your former GM as well as his or her inability to handle things punctually is proof of that.

    If something like that happens again (and hopefully you’ll find a home for your character where it wouldn’t anyway), I’d recommend speaking directly to someone in leadership after asking the person to stop once or twice so that it’s 100% understood as being a bona fide problem. It sounds like it’s better (for your sake) that you left, though, and it’s usually about time to do that when a guild’s leadership professes contentment with stagnation.

    I hope your break treats you well.

  17. adgamorix June 13, 2011 at 4:09 pm #

    I just figure when folks do that kind of thing that they’re trying to say “hey, I don’t know how to destroy items – please help” and I just delete them. It’s a shame that you let them get under your skin like that, but it sounds like you weren’t really happy there in the first place.

  18. Clasmir June 13, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    Dearest O,

    I am sorry to see you go. With anything like this there is a bit of misunderstanding and confusion on both sides. In my case I had a lot of RL events taking up my time. I’m part of the equation that caused the delays getting back to you.

    I’d also like to comment on the raid and when the event in question happened. When you voiced your concern and asked whomever it was to stop I spent some time trying to find out who it was but I didn’t have any luck. If someone really wants to push someones button, in my opinion, there isn’t much that can be done unless you witness the person doing it. Again, in my humble opinion, anything else just demoralizes the team.

    At that particular time I was focused on heroic Nef and determing whether our tanking team had the bases covered. I did not spend any more effort on the leather balls being tossed around.

    Perhaps this is for the best. I wish you the best O.


    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 5:28 pm #

      Thank you for the kind words, Clas.

      I really appreciate you stopping by and you definitely were one of the people I respected the most in the guild. I apologize that you ended up being caught up in everything that happened and I do thank you for being as kind to me as you were, right up until the end. It means a lot.

  19. Zelmaru June 13, 2011 at 5:35 pm #

    These situations are completely impossible. If you say stop, you mean stop, dammit!

    On the other hand, I have been the raid leader before, and having a raider leave the raid in all the commotion would make me tear my hair out like “well now what do I do?” Cause it’s really hard to keep 25 people in line when you’re trying to herd cats toward the instance.

    On the very other hand (there are lots of hands), often one feels powerless, maybe in a pug or a raid or whatever, and the ONLY bit of power we even HAVE is to remove ourselves from the situation, but we can’t do that because we feel like we owe a duty to the other X number of people there who haven’t done anything wrong? How many times have you been roped into doing something you totally didn’t want to do because otherwise the raid/instance/whatever would not HAPPEN without you?

    Hindsight is fun, because after the fact, with much time on their hands, people will think of the EXACT RIGHT thing to have done in the situation. In any situation. “Well the appropriate response would have been to ____” (My husband has done that in raiding post-mortems and I wanted to make him sleep in the cat box, because there is NO WAY he would have thought of that appropriate strategy or response to environment in the heat of the moment.)

    But, uh, back to the situation at hand. People need to stop when asked to stop. Something that’s funny to one person isn’t funny to another. And there is probably a better way of handling it than quitting the group, but that better way is only made apparent to anyone days later with the benefit of thinking it over.

  20. Mzi June 13, 2011 at 6:10 pm #

    I understand much of what you went through. Ever since downing Nef around 6 weeks ago after the initial 140 wipes, we’ve only managed to get him down after 10 wipes on any particular week once or twice. And it’s all very simple error, cinders and interrupts.

    But, I can’t condone how you handled the situation.

    Best of luck in your hunt for a new guild! I hope that you find a group that’s more of a fit for your style, so you’ll not have to deal with anything of the sort again.

  21. Sarriss June 13, 2011 at 7:08 pm #

    Sorry for the delay. 🙂

    About the half and half… I understand completely why you did it. It’s about a lack of respect from your fellow raiders. There is a time and a place for such foolery, mid raid on a wipe night is not one of them. The only person he was entertaining with it was himself, and that’s just selfish tbh.

    So heres my little ragequit story… Early in ICC we were struggling to fill raid groups and we didnt always have a raid leader. Now I’m fairly well known around my server for raid leading successful pugs, and this particular night, we were trying for progression on LK himself. Our regular raid leaders were for some reason not in the raid, and officers were asking for someone to raid lead. Even though I had had a fairly tiring day at work, I offered to do it, thinking this would be a good opportunity to show the guild what I learnt from pugs. Well… about halfway through the evenings raid (I was getting /w comments from all sides, people trying to help but really just freaking me out) we get to phase change so I assigned some hunters to take care of the orbs. They didnt listen, so we wiped. Prepull I again assign it, and I get a /w from one of the hunters going, who is sposed to take the orbs… I assign it a third time. Again it doesnt happen. We wipe. While we were running back the same hunter who didnt listen 3 times pipes up and says on Vent: “Gee Sarri, I asked for this assignment 3 times and I got no reply. Maybe you should let someone else who is capable of leading do it.” That was me. I saw RED, typed in raid chat well if thats how everyone feels, get the regular RL in cos I am OUTTA here!” left the raid and logged off for a few hours. (The regular RL had come online during one of our wipes).

    Anyway, it really was a stupid thing to do, as RL I had the right to shut him up but coupled with the long day at work and the additional pressure, it just hit me the wrong way. That said, our officers were on to it pretty quick, I got raked over the coals a bit (as none of them had heard his comment on vent) but when I explained my side they understood, to a point. We both got docked some dkp and I had to sit out the next 2 raids, but it was fair enough imo. I made a bad choice and took my lumps. But I am still in the same guild and raid lead on occasion. The same hunter is still around too.

    What I dont get is why the RL didnt put a stop to your Leather ball fiend ASAP. He didnt need to know who it was, just a blanket, whoever is throwing the leather balls please stop right now and focus on the raid/stop pissing the healers off/whatever… and if they continued to offend, stop the raid until that person owns up. When faced with 24 other people waiting for you to own up, most people do it straight away.

    Thing is tho, I wouldnt have left my guild over that incident. Most people thought I would. But my guild is my home at home, sure I dont get on with everyone, but I count the majority of the guild as my friends and I am finding Sarri’s grand adventure to be a bit of a trial, altho the longer I am in her new guild, the easier it gets (see my blog for the story /pimp). Ultimately you must not have been happy there if that drove you to gquit. And if that is the case, then you did do the right thing, and kudos for having the balls to do it.

    Oh, and you are welcome over in the EU anytime, we are in dire need of good healy priests! =)

    • Oestrus June 13, 2011 at 8:19 pm #

      Hi Sariss,

      Like I said before in a previous comment, I didn’t quit the guild that night. It was three days later and based on conversations that I had with an officer and the GM on Skype and in a private messageon the forums (respectively) that led me to quitting. The incident during the raid alone wouldn’t have been enough. It was how it was handled by certain people after the fact and the general tone of things that convinced me that staying was not an option for me.

      It’s funny, I have gotten so many offers to join EU guilds. I tell you, if one of you can figure out the time zone issue, I’m all for it!


  22. Borsk June 13, 2011 at 8:36 pm #

    After raid leading for 5 years I have determined that there are two kinds of people in this world:

    Those that don’t even notice or care about the toy train and those that will murder your children if you drop it.

  23. chris June 13, 2011 at 9:10 pm #

    I’m a little curious, many of you have said that this is the result of the officer’s failure to fix the problem, but I haven’t seen anyone explain exactly how a RL or officer should have gone about stopping further hazing. That type of annoyance can be difficult to track down to a particular person, so unless people chose to start acting like big boys and girls on their own, the only real option they have is to ask the raid to stop. I suppose the RL could halt the raid until people own up to their behavior, but then your punishing 23 people for two’s personal issues. Neither of these strategies for dealing with the issue in the middle of the raid are partiality effective, but they’re the only two I think I’ve read in all these comments that seem to want to hold the officers responsible for one person’s acting like an ass and another’s overreaction.

    • Rhii June 14, 2011 at 1:30 am #

      No you can’t absolutely force another player to do something, short of going to their home and taking over their PC, but they could have SAID something. Not too many people get to H-Nef without listening to their officers.

  24. ironyca June 15, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    You titled your post “Balls”, but I saw it as having more to do with disrespect. As I understood it, it wasn’t just the leather balls being thrown around that were provoking, but more so the disrespect of them not stopping when asked to, and I understand that you got upset about that.

    Without knowing the structure of your ex-guild, I’m wondering if there had been a point in addressing this issue yourself on the forums before waiting for “higher forces” to deal with them?

    I think a lot of guilds – in general, can benefit from their members speaking up when they have concerns, instead of being passive (or passive aggressive maybe) about the solving of it.
    Starting the discussion about it in a forum thread, explaining your point of view as descriptive and non accusatory as possible, could perhaps have helped further your case and make others understand where you are coming from. (You mentioned the forums, so maybe you did deal with it there?)

    I’m just trying to shed some light on what could be learned from this.

    • Oestrus June 15, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

      Hi Ironyca,

      This wasn’t something that had happened before. I completely agree with you, in that it is best to handle something pre-emptively, rather than stew about it and let it boil over into what it eventually became.

      At the time, I went through what I felt were very obvious motions that I was upset, annoyed and feeling disrespected. I don’t feel that I was subtle, at all. There was no mistaking that I was not having a good time, I was not amused and I was fed up. Granted, it wasn’t all over the balls, but it certainly contributed to it.

      Were this a pattern with the guild or certain people, I would have been more than willing to bring it up earlier. This was the first time that it happened and to me, and I felt that once was enough.

  25. Gal June 16, 2011 at 10:55 pm #

    I can see both sides of the coin here. When you’re continuously wiping on a boss every week, raids get tense. That stress coupled with some people trying to goof off, even though they just may be trying to lighten the mood, set you off.

    However, I feel for your raid leader and raid. Having someone ragequit, especially over something oters see as “being silly”, just brings on more drama. To make matters worse, you said this was the first time something like this has happened. Now you are seen as a drama queen that the raid has to replace when she’s angered. It leaves a bad taste in the raiders mouth to have to deal with that. And it shows a bit of immaturity.

    I’ll agree with some of the above posters in that you should have received an apology from the person who did this, but I also think you owed your guild an apology for ragequitting. They ended up having to pick up your slack. Thankfully it ended well, but it was highly disrespectful. So, in my eyes, both parties were in the wrong.

  26. Jaedia June 17, 2011 at 6:50 am #

    I hate that feeling of being at a guild’s beck and call because it’s never the guild, it’s always the GM’s or an officer’s and that’s the part where you start feeling like said GM’s/officer’s bitch to do as they say or else. I’d have left too at that point.

    Hope you find somewhere you can feel more comfortable soon.

  27. Kuri June 17, 2011 at 9:36 am #

    I’ll keep this short and sweet from my perspective.

    You were right in being annoyed. The person throwing leather balls was right in trying to maintain a fun atmosphere in the raid. They were very wrong in continuing when you said stop. You were very wrong rage-quitting the raid, forcing them to switch up on the fly.

    Ultimately, situation escalation protocol was not followed. You didn’t contact any Officers/GMs/RLs about the issue. It seems like you sent off a couple annoyed comments through Vent and let it be. Things are rarely- if ever- resolved that way in real life and it’s not how they should be resolved in raids. Next time, should you find yourself in a similar situation, petition your concerns to an Officer who can deal with it. At least then you exhausted your options and are right for taking things into your own hands.

    Sadly, in this story you ultimately came out looking like the bad guy. Which is unfortunate, because it seems like there were misunderstandings all around. But alas, there’s always a next time!

    • Oestrus June 17, 2011 at 10:00 am #

      Hello Kuri,

      Thanks for stopping by and sharing your perspective on this. I can’t believe people are still talking about and that it turned into what it turned into. I didn’t think it would attract as much attention, but it did and I’m grateful for the comments and the views that it attracted.

      I have never minded looking like the bad guy. Obviously, it’s nothing something I set out to do. But I don’t shy away from it, either. I’m not afraid to fall on my face or fail and then dust myself off and learn from my mistakes.

      What’s right for me may not be right for everyone else and vice versa. There are some blogs that I read where I wouldn’t have done what they do, but I’m not them. I can’t make that judgment and if it worked for them and they found success with it, then I’m all for it.


  1. I Am Legend(ary) « The Stories Of O - June 23, 2011

    […] To some extent, I think my guild felt that because I had so many fragments already (I was up to twelve, at that point) that I wouldn’t be going anywhere and that I would have no choice but to take whatever people felt like dishing out.  They obviously didn’t know me very well.  […]

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